Monday, June 27, 2011

MYTH #1 There is no Trinity

Jehovah Witnesses will say such things as "The Trintity is false" However the bible, even their bible proves that is wrong.

This Parable can only be about the Trinity

(NWT) Matthew 13:33 Another illustration he spoke to them: “The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.” 34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.”

Abraham was happy to see God...

(NWT) Genesis 18:1 Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam´re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.

Jesus was there as God....

(NWT)John 8:56 Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” .

Only God is our Savior (Isa 43:11)
Jesus is our Savior (Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1)

God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22)
Jesus is our Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)

Only God can forgive sins (Luke 5:21)
Jesus forgives sins (Luke 5:20)

God is our owner (Isa. 54:5)
Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4)

God is the horn of salvation (2 Sam 22:3)
Jesus is the horn of salvation (Luke 1:68-69)

Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1)
Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1)
No man can slave for two masters (Mat 6:24)

God is the King of Israel (Isa 44:6)
Jesus is the King of Israel (Mat. 27:42, John 1:49)

God is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14)
Jesus is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (1 Pet 2:8)

God was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-13)
Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mat 26:14-16)

To God, every knee will bow and tongue confess (Isa 45:22-23)
To Jesus, every knee will bow and tongue confess (Phil 2:10-11)

The HOLY SPIRIT, THE 3RD PERSON OF THE HOLY TRINITY

In Acts 5:1-4 When Ananias lied to the Church, Peter told him he had lied to the Holy Spirit and in lying to the Holy Spirit he lied to God.

Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit speaks to the Disciples, telling them to apart Saul and Barnabas for the work God has planned for them, A non-personal "active force" can not speak like a person

(NWT) John 16:13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.

This verse say 3 important things about the Holy Spirit
1) He speaks
2) He hears
3) he is referred to as HE as personal pronoun.

In Romans 8:26-27 This passage tells us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. An impersonal "active force" cannot plead on our behalf. Thus the Holy Spirit is a Person.


20 comments:

  1. Is the trinity doctrine Biblical?

    If the Athanasian Creed, which contains the trinity doctrine, is based on the teachings of Jesus, where in the Bible did JESUS teach that:

    1. "We worship one God in trinity"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    2. "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    3. "The Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    4. "Every Person by Himself [is] God"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    5. "In this Trinity, none is greater or less than Another"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    6. "The whole Three Persons [of the trinity] are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    7. "The Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    8. "He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    9. "Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ"? Answer: NOWHERE!

    By its own admission, the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God."

    So, is the trinity teaching Biblical? Obviously, the answer is no. In Jesus' words, his Father--a single person--is "the only true God." (John 17:3)

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  3. XAndrewX must have forgotten that "trinity" means "a unity of THREE." Thus, according to the trinity teaching, God consists of three co-equal, co-eternal, co-almighty persons. Now, look at XAndrewX's trinity "proof" verses, and see if they even hint of a three-person deity.

    1. Only God is our Savior (Isa 43:11)
    Jesus is our Savior (Tit 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "our Savior"? Why just Jesus?

    2. God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22)
    Jesus is our Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "our Rock"? Why just Jesus?

    3. Only God can forgive sins (Luke 5:21)
    Jesus forgives sins (Luke 5:20)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons can forgive sins? Why just Jesus?

    4. God is our owner (Isa. 54:5)
    Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "our only owner"? Why just Jesus?

    5. God is the horn of salvation (2 Sam 22:3)
    Jesus is the horn of salvation (Luke 1:68-69)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "the horn of salvation"? Why just Jesus?

    6. Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1)
    Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1)
    No man can slave for two masters (Mat 6:24)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that we should slave for ALL three persons? Why just Jesus?

    7. God is the King of Israel (Isa 44:6)
    Jesus is the King of Israel (Mat. 27:42, John 1:49)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "the King of Israel"? Why just Jesus?

    8. God is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14)
    Jesus is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (1 Pet 2:8)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "a stone of offense and a stumbling block"? Why just Jesus?

    9. God was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-13)
    Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mat 26:14-16)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that ALL three persons are "valued at 30 pieces"? Why just Jesus?

    10. To God, every knee will bow and tongue confess (Isa 45:22-23)
    To Jesus, every knee will bow and tongue confess (Phil 2:10-11)

    If God consists of three persons (Father, Son, holy spirit), why didn't XAndrewX show Scripture saying that "every knee will bow and tongue confess" to ALL three persons? Why just Jesus?

    And what of Jesus' illustration at Matt. 13:33-35? Where did he say or even imply in that verse that God consists of three co-equal, co-eternal, co-almighty persons? Answer: He didn't. To Jesus, his Father is "the only true God." (John 17:3)

    And what about Gen.18:1-3? Do you see anything there that even hints of a three-person deity? Answer: NO! Note: To those who want to believe that the three angels that Abraham saw was God are reminded to consider John 1:18, where it says: "No man has seen God AT ANY TIME."

    And what about John 8:58? Where does it say in that verse that God is a trinity? Answer: NOWHERE!

    No matter how hard XAndrewX tries, he will fail at using the Bible to prove that God is a trinity. As the New Catholic Encyclopedia says, the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God."

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  4. Since Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God, Jesus was born as both when he came into the world. It is not as though Jesus came out and then God entered later. Just as your parents each contributed to your genetic make up but they did not create your spirit, yet they are still your parents. Your mother gave birth to you, not just your body. Jesus' birth was prophesied in Isiah 9:6 and in Luke 1 Yes God did send forth his son, and Jesus says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one"

    In Acts 5:1-4 When Ananias lied to the Church, Peter told him he had lied to the Holy Spirit and in lying to the Holy Spirit he lied to God.

    Acts 13:2 The Holy Spirit speaks to the Disciples, telling them to apart Saul and Barnabas for the work God has planned for them, A non-personal "active force" can not speak like a person

    (NWT) John 16:13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.

    This verse say 3 important things about the Holy Spirit
    1) He speaks
    2) He hears
    3) he is referred to as HE as personal pronoun.

    In Romans 8:26-27 This passage tells us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. An impersonal "active force" cannot plead on our behalf. Thus the Holy Spirit is a Person.

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  5. "Since Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God, Jesus was born as both when he came into the world."

    Again, you show profound confusion. According to your own Athanasian Creed, God is not a single person; he's three persons. Have you forgotten that "trinity" means "a unity of three"? So, by yor own rules, if the man Jesus was also 100% God, then, that would make him four persons--one human plus a three-person deity. Does that make sense to you? It shouldn't. So you tell me, is God one person or is he three? You can't seem to decide which.

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  6. "In Romans 8:26-27 This passage tells us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. An impersonal "active force" cannot plead on our behalf. Thus the Holy Spirit is a Person."

    Do your own research books say the holy spirit is a person? No. Consider what they say:

    The Catholic Encyclopedia says: "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person."

    Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman says in his book, "The Triune God": "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power."

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person . . . God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly." It also says: "The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God."

    A Catholic Dictionar states : "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power."

    A Catholic Dictionary notes: "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381."

    So, after reading what your own Catholic books say, do you still agree with them that the holy spirit is "a divine energy or power," which is "someTHING, not someONE"? If you do, then you have to acknowledge that the trinity teaching is a lie, because, as I said before, if the holy spirit is NOT a person, then, you have no three-person deity. Are you willing to admit that, or do you prefer to hold on to a lie? As the New Catholic Encyclopedia confesses, the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God."

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  7. The Catholic Athanasian Creed says that "we worship one God in trinity." Instead of giving me verses that have nothing to do with God being "a unity of three" persons, why don't you give me just one verse where "God" clearly refers to a three-person deity. Can you do that for me?

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  8. "I will publish things hidden since the founding."

    (NWT) Matthew 13:33 Another illustration he spoke to them: “The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.” 34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.”

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  9. So, are you saying that Matt. 13:33 gives evidence of a three-person deity? If it does, explain it to me, or do you only dump scriptures in others' laps and then run before they can ask you to explain yourself?

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  10. The scripture is self explanatory.

    Jesus put it in a parable, how much simpler does it need to be for you to understand?

    Good lord he even says he will publish things hidden since the founding.....

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  11. Any other JW's reading this need to see Carl's hateful rants in the name of Jehovahs witnesses on my other blog,

    http://catholicmyths.blogspot.com

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  14. Carl said...
    Carl said...
    Matt. 13:33 is self-explanatory of what? That God is "a unity of three" persons? Not a chance! That's why you can't tell me what the parable means?

    Face it, you can't even refute your own New Catholic Encyclopedia when it says that the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God." So, since the trinity teaching, as laid out by the Catholic Athanasian Creed, is not based on Scripture, how can you say Jesus was trying to explain it? How can you explain something that never existed

    FYI, concerning who God is, the Bible does NOT keep that hidden. The Jews knew who God was. At John 8:41, they said: "We have one Father, God." Jesus knew who God was. At John 17:3, he called his Father--a single person--"the only true God." Paul knew who God was. At 1 Cor. 8:6, he said: "There is actually to us, one God the Father." Does that sound like the Jews or Jesus or Paul didn't know who God was? Absolutely not. They all agreed that God was one person--the Father, whose name is Jehovah. (Ps. 91:1, 2; 83:18)

    "Any other JW's reading this needs to see Carl's hateful rants in the name of Jehovahs witnesses on my other blog."

    Calling my Bible-based comments "hateful rants" is both silly and immature. However, I have no objection to anyone reading what I have said. They just might learn something from the Bible.

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  15. Im sorry "My own" Catholic encyclopedia? I have told you to produce something official from the Catechism which is official Church teachings, you can seem to produce that.

    Why? Because you cant.

    Instead you find an out of context quote from a small Arizona Church that is Anti Catholic and ironically Anti-JW.

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  16. Shouldn't official Church teaching come from the Bible, not a man-made document? When 2 Tim. 3:16 speaks about "all Scripture is inspired of God," it's referring to the Bible, not a Catholic catechism.

    BTW, are you saying that the New Catholic Encyclopedia does NOT contain Church teachings, but that the Catechism does?

    And what's this about your saying that I quote from a small Arizona Church? How silly is that.

    One last thing. Have you noticed that you have yet to prove that the trinity is a Bible teaching? I suppose that makes sense since the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God." (The New Catholic Encyclopedia)

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  17. The Church came before the bible.

    1Timothy 3:[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    2Timothy says scripture is "useful" but not mandatory. It is a tool.

    In fact in Matthew 18 we see that the Church is the FINAL word on matters of Faith not scripture.

    Matthew 18:[15] But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

    [16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

    Regarding the Encyclopedia, it may contain some teachings but in NO WAY does it trump the Catechism, Canon Law, the Bible or any other official Church document (Yes the bible is a Catholic Book and Document)

    The Trinity has been proven from scripture, again the fact that you do not accept it doesnt may it less true it means that you are blind.

    2Thessalonians 2:[9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

    I guess this leads us right back to St. Thomas? "Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe"

    You need to see it in scripture to believe it? When then do you walk by faith and not sight?

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  18. At John 8:31, 32, Jesus said: "If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth." At Matt. 28:19, 20, Jesus commanded his followers to "go and make disciples and to "teach them all the things I commanded you." So, in order for one to truly be a disciple of Jesus, he has to remain in Jesus' words. Then he had to go and teach others the same thing that they had learned from Jesus. When Jesus personally taught his disciples, did he teach them that:

    1. "we worship one God in trinity"? No.

    2. "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the holy spirit is God"? No.

    3. "in this trinity, none is greater than another"? No.

    4. "in this trinity, the whole three persons are co-equal together and co-equal"? No.

    5. "he that will be saved must think of the Trinity"? No.

    6. "it is necessary to everlasting Salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ"? No.



    So, how could a true disciple of Jesus remain in his word, yet teach something that Jesus never taught? It's not possible. Jesus never taught the trinity, so his followers never taught it to their disciples. The Catholic Church and others who have failed to remain in the Word of Jesus have put themselves in the same position as the religious leaders of Jesus' day. Of them, Jesus said: "'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts." (Matt. 15:9 New American Bible)

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  19. "The Trinity has been proven from scripture, again the fact that you do not accept it doesnt may it less true it means that you are blind."

    The trinity has not been proven by Scripture. All you have to do is to compare the trinity doctrine, as described by the Athanasian Creed, with what the Bible really says. Do the two agree? Absolutely not! So, it's not surprising that the New Catholic Encyclopedia says that the trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God."

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  20. "Yes the bible is a Catholic Book and Document)"

    If the Catholic Church made the Bible, is it not strange that she failed to include any word about the assumption of Mary, her immaculate conception and about the efficacy of praying to her; about the veneration of relics, images and saints; about the use of holy water; about the ceremony of the mass; about a pope’s being the vicar of Christ; about monsignors, archbishops and cardinals; about purgatory; about a celibate clergy; about not eating meat on Friday or during Lent; about making novenas; about infant baptism; etc.? Is not the fact that the Bible is silent on all these outstanding points of the Catholic religion strong circumstantial evidence that the Catholic Church did not make the Bible? that it is not a Catholic book?

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